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One factor tomorrow’s election will take a look at is Individuals’ urge for food for chaos, notably the type that Donald Trump has been exhibiting in the previous few months of his marketing campaign. After weeks of operating a disciplined marketing campaign, Trump’s advisers misplaced management of their candidate, the Atlantic workers author Tim Alberta reported this week. Trump grew stressed and bored and drifted off script in his marketing campaign appearances. Throughout a summer time interview with the Nationwide Affiliation of Black Journalists, for instance, he mused aloud about Kamala Harris, “I don’t know. Is she Indian or is she Black?” From the attitude of his advisers, Trump’s string of offensive public statements needlessly alienated potential voters. Members of Trump’s marketing campaign workers informed Alberta that they turned disillusioned about their potential to rein of their candidate and left the marketing campaign.
Will this unleashed model of Trump have an effect on the election consequence? On this week’s episode of Radio Atlantic, we speak with Alberta and one other Atlantic workers author, Mark Leibovich, about how candidate Trump reworked over the summer time, how Kamala Harris’s marketing campaign reacted, the place every marketing campaign stands now, and what it means for the election. Alberta and Leibovich additionally provide tips about tips on how to handle your interior chaos whereas watching the election outcomes.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
Hanna Rosin: I’m Hanna Rosin, and this can be a bonus episode of Radio Atlantic. We’re recording the Monday earlier than Election Day. The candidates are furiously campaigning within the swing states. Sooner or later, their planes have been on the identical tarmac in North Carolina.
Over the weekend, Donald Trump mused about capturing reporters; Kamala Harris mentioned regular marketing campaign issues. And but the race remains to be one of many closest in American historical past.
Anyway, on this episode, I need to get the within view of each political campaigns of their final days. So I’ve with me as we speak two seasoned political reporters, Mark Leibovich. Hello, Mark.
Mark Leibovich: Hello, Hanna.
Rosin: And Tim Alberta. Hello, Tim.
Tim Alberta: Hello, Hanna. Hello, Mark.
Leibovich: Hello, Tim. Isn’t it good to be seasoned as we speak?
Alberta: I’m feeling very seasoned.
Rosin: Yeah, that’s a cliché phrase. It doesn’t imply outdated. What’s a extra flattering phrase than seasoned? Like, skilled? Or longtime? Longtime: that’s flattering, I believe.
Leibovich: It’s undoubtedly flattering.
Alberta: We don’t use veteran.
Rosin: No, veteran is outdated. How about lively?
Leibovich: Yeah, we’re very lively. Yeah. Are you able to inform by our voices?
Rosin: (Laughs.) Anyway, Mark, I perceive you’re writing up a preelection information to tips on how to method Tuesday night time.
Leibovich: Principally, I’m attempting to gather a useful toolkit to tips on how to method Election Day from type of a sensible standpoint so far as what data you’ll be able to ignore, but additionally a behavior and even mindfulness standpoint about tips on how to not drive your self needlessly loopy, how to not be triggered by the sorts of issues that Election Evening protection will most likely overload you with.
And that features Donald Trump most likely declaring victory wildly prematurely or erroneously, which, I imply, will probably be information as a result of he’s one of many candidates, however it additionally ought to shock nobody. And there are methods to form of situation your self, or attempt to, going into what tomorrow night time will probably be like—which will probably be clearly very anxious for lots of people.
Rosin: I see. So as an alternative of “We all know it’s going to be like that,” like, “We all know that we don’t have sufficient data.”
We all know that there most likely isn’t going to be, type of, immediate early readability. So that you’re going into it eyes extensive open, doing what? Like, what? As a result of perhaps Tim wants this recommendation.
Leibovich: Nicely, I’m attempting. Nicely, I believe all of us want this recommendation, Hanna. I imply, I believe it’s an method to how we eat data, how we get data.
I talked to a few Democratic consultants who mentioned that one of many first issues they do is flip off all their textual content notifications, as a result of any form of textual content notification is designed to set off you on Election Evening.
There may be a number of manipulation of your feelings earlier than the precise solely data that’s obligatory, which, essentially the most worthwhile data goes to return in most likely after 11 o’clock, or fairly late. It may very well be days later. The concept is the information will discover you. Flip off your cellphone in case you can. Data is coming in haphazardly from 1,000,000 completely different instructions, out of order, in no explicit sequence in any respect, about one thing that has already occurred—which means the voting has already occurred. So no management is there. That is principally simply individuals throwing data out in no order, and it isn’t essentially—
Rosin: It’s not cumulative and it’s not including as much as—
Leibovich: —Not cumulative.
Rosin: Precisely. Precisely.
Leibovich: So anyway, that’s one cause you’ll be able to skip that half.
Rosin: Attention-grabbing. Tim, do you assume you would do this?
Alberta: I concern that within the try and not drive myself loopy, I might drive myself loopy. In different phrases, you’ll discover your mind stacking up with the entire issues that different individuals know that you just don’t, as a result of in that second you might have determined to sequester your self or at the least to type of rigidly compartmentalize your feelings and your mind waves and your political consumption.
And due to this fact the exit polling exhibiting the variety of non-college whites in Maricopa County breaking away from Trump is misplaced on you in that pivotal second, when that may very well be the little parcel of knowledge that’s obligatory so that you can imagine that you’ve got lastly discovered this electoral equation and that you’ve got a bead on it on this second.
It’s a recreation of inches, and the inches are in every single place round us, Hanna. So how may I quit any of these inches after we are so near the top of the sport? I would like the zen that Mark is providing, however I simply don’t discover it practical.
Rosin: Hmm. You understand how typically you begin with the second of meditation? We’ll contemplate that our second of meditation, and now we’re gonna go into the nerve-racking a part of this dialog. So, Tim, you’ve been masking the Republican facet intently, and you latterly spent a number of time speaking to Trump’s advisers.
How would you describe the state of the marketing campaign within the weeks earlier than the election?
Alberta: I might describe it as one thing barely faraway from the serenity that Mark has described for us.
Rosin: Sure. Okay. Yeah.
Alberta: Yeah, look, Hanna, I believe the context right here is de facto vital: that this Trump marketing campaign, not like the earlier two, was for almost all of its time in operation, actually fairly disciplined, fairly good.
The individuals operating the marketing campaign had achieved a reasonably good job of protecting Trump out of his personal manner and speaking him out of unhealthy concepts and type of curbing a few of his most self-destructive impulses. And what we’ve seen within the final couple of months is principally Trump going full Trump, and an lack of ability amongst these senior advisers to actually do something to cease it.
This has been form of the proverbial slow-motion automobile wreck. And, you recognize, it’s not simply Trump himself, though after all he’s the inspiration for the chaos. He’s the generator of the entire turmoil that you just see.
He’s on the heart of this chaos, however the chaos ripples out away from him. And so once you ask your self the query of how may or not it’s that at crucial public occasion of the marketing campaign, with 20,000-plus jammed into Madison Sq. Backyard in prime time, the entire world watching, and also you pay 1,000,000 {dollars} to placed on this occasion, and the man who kicks it off is a vulgar, shock jock, insult-roast comic who was dropped by his personal expertise company for utilizing racial slurs onstage—how may this particular person presumably be booked into that place to open for Trump in that setting? It’s precisely the type of factor that the individuals round him had been actually profitable in avoiding for many of the marketing campaign. However in the end, in the important thing residence stretch right here, within the type of the witching hours of this marketing campaign, it’s all fallen aside.
Rosin: Mark, similar for the Democrats. How would you describe the place they’re?
Leibovich: I might say I’ve talked to a good variety of Democrats on the marketing campaign in the previous few days.
It looks like one thing approaching the overall space of the ballpark of confidence.
Rosin: Attention-grabbing! Anomalous for Democrats.
Leibovich: Nicely, they’re so extremely fast to embrace unhealthy information and to go proper from unhealthy information to deep ranges of doomsaying. I’ve not seen that in the previous few days.
I imply, look, I believe their numbers internally appear a bit of higher. I believe a number of the exterior polls have been encouraging. And I believe you’ll be able to’t underestimate how a lot of a prepare wreck Trump’s final 10 days have been, in a manner that, if he loses, I believe individuals will very a lot level to.
Rosin: So, Mark, I bear in mind we sat right here within the spring and mentioned how completely stagnant this race could be. Like, we have been simply sleepwalking right into a repeat.
Leibovich: But it surely was an excellent podcast. Everybody ought to take heed to it once more. (Laughs.)
Rosin: But it surely was very, you recognize—we didn’t have a lot to say. After which for everyone, the reset button received pressed in July.
Tim, the complete Trump who we’ve seen on the marketing campaign path for the previous few months began, truly, in response to your account, earlier than Harris entered the race. So what occurred?
Alberta: I believe that perhaps the right visible right here, Hanna, is just like the wild animal that has chased down its prey and has mauled it largely to dying and is now simply type of pawing at it, toying with it, not sure of actually what to do as a result of, effectively, what’s left to do?
Donald Trump actually discovered himself, in response to all of the reporting I did, type of over it. Type of tired of operating in opposition to Joe Biden. As a result of right here is, in his view, this type of hapless outdated man who can’t even string collectively sentences, a lot much less actually defend himself or go on offense in a significant manner in opposition to Trump. And so I believe that he’s Joe Biden considering, Gosh that is type of a bore, and round this time, after all, in late June, early July, Trump’s polling is healthier than it’s ever been in any of his three campaigns for the presidency.
The battleground polling is exhibiting him constantly pulling forward 5, six, seven factors throughout all of those states. The nationwide polling is up. His favorability is up. Democrats are getting ready for a massacre not simply to lose the presidency however to lose the Home and the Senate, and it’s, you recognize, The sky is falling. And everybody round Trump is type of giddy and gleeful. They’re trying round like, Nothing can cease us.
And round this time is once you began to see Trump speaking a bit of bit in a different way, behaving a bit of bit in a different way, in response to individuals near him—virtually in search of some dysfunction and a few mayhem to inject into the marketing campaign. He begins speaking to individuals on the surface. And when Kamala Harris will get within the race, he was offended, on the one hand, as a result of he thought he had it type of sewn up in opposition to Biden, and he appreciated operating in opposition to Biden within the sense that Biden actually, you recognize, couldn’t punch again.
However I believe additionally he’s type of excited within the sense that with Harris, he’s received this dwell goal. He’s in a position to channel among the base instincts that introduced him to energy within the first place. You understand, Trump, I believe, seen the Harris switcheroo as a brand new lease on life within the sense that he was going to have the ability to go entire hog once more.
However the individuals round him have been saying, No, no, no, no. That’s precisely what we don’t need you to do. And admittedly, the rationale you’re on this place is since you’ve listened to us and since you haven’t been going rogue and operating the form of, you recognize, completely undisciplined #YOLO 2016 marketing campaign that you just want to run and that you’d run in case you have been left to your individual units. And round that point is when Trump began to lose confidence in these individuals who have been giving him that recommendation, and he introduced in different individuals to assist with the marketing campaign, and from there issues actually began to spiral.
Rosin: So, Mark, how are Democrats responding as Trump is reasserting this peak-Trump model of himself?
Leibovich: I believe in a form of measured manner. I imply, I believe, look, the height Trump just about speaks for itself. It’s not such as you want individuals to amplify. I imply, to some extent you do, as a result of retailers that a number of Republicans watch—like, say, Fox—are going to be insulated from a number of this, as a result of simply Fox doesn’t present it.
I imply, that’s simply not their level of emphasis, However I believe they’ve been very deft—they’ve made a number of adverts across the form of altering abortion messaging. I imply, even Melania Trump saying that she believes in a lady’s proper to decide on, issues like that, to some extent, they’re attempting to focus on it, however to a different diploma—this can be a large political-operative cliché, however they’re operating their race.
And I believe the Democrats, starting when Biden stepped apart, I believe Harris has carried out significantly better than lots of people thought she would, and I believe her marketing campaign has made a number of good selections, and he or she herself has made a number of good selections.
Rosin: It does, from the surface, appear precisely the alternative of the chaos contained in the Trump marketing campaign that Tim described, as a result of in case you assume again to when Biden dropped out, there was some fear that the transition may not be clean.
Leibovich: Oh, 100%. I imply, Tim and I, bear in mind, we have been on the Republican conference collectively, and that was such a second, as a result of Trump was actually form of at his peak then, which is form of ironic to say, as a result of the assassination try had taken place two days earlier than the conference began. However his recognition, I imply—there was a way of confidence at that conference which was simply off the charts to a level to which you would virtually sense the boredom creeping into Trump when he’s giving this acceptance speech, and I assume it was Thursday night time, after which about midway by, he simply form of went off the rails, and he simply type of—it turned only a very unhinged acceptance speech, went from form of a gripping one the place he’s describing the assassination try and one thing fully completely different, which form of turned a metaphor for the way the remainder of the marketing campaign would unfurl for him.
And naturally, three days later, Biden received out after which the world modified once more.
Rosin: All proper, up subsequent, I ask Tim and Mark whether or not the chaotic ultimate months of the Trump marketing campaign may find yourself costing him the election. That’s after the break.
[Break]
Rosin: So from a marketing campaign supervisor’s perspective, the chaos is disturbing, however what we truly care about is whether or not it has any affect on voting day. Tim, so what are the methods the drama you describe may have an effect on the election? Like, say, turnout or no matter it’s that we’re anxious about?
Alberta: Nicely, look, if these episodes have been contained to simply Trump being a bit of bit goofy or going off message and type of ranting and raving in regards to the newest one that mentioned one thing very nasty about him on cable information, I don’t assume it might have a lot real-world impact. However I believe that a few of what we’re unpacking right here over these previous 10, 11, 12 weeks, Hanna, is one thing that truly will get to a basic weak spot, which is a failure of the Trump staff to increase its coalition.
Or on the very least what we’re seeing is the best way wherein the potential of increasing the Trump coalition has been undermined by Trump’s personal actions or by the individuals near him. So, for instance, we all know primarily based on six months of actually stable, constant information that Trump is prone to carry out higher with Latino voters as an entire and notably with Latino males underneath 40 than any Republican nominee in fashionable historical past.
And but, when the dominant headline popping out of your rally at Madison Sq. Backyard the week earlier than the election is that one in every of your audio system calls the island of Puerto Rico floating trash within the ocean, that is self-sabotage.
One other core part of this Trump marketing campaign, from the start, has been How will we preserve our margins tight within the suburbs outdoors of Detroit and Milwaukee and Philly and Vegas and elsewhere? How will we preserve our margins tight with these college-educated, suburban girls? We’re not going to win them, proper? However how will we handle to maintain it shut? How will we lose them by simply seven or eight factors as an alternative of by 16, 17, 18, 20 factors?
And once you take a look at, for instance, the collection of J. D. Vance and, you recognize, his outdated, greatest-hits reel round childless cat women, and he thinks abortion needs to be unlawful nationwide, proper?
And there’s simply one thing that type of went essentially awry over the summer time. I believe Mark is true. Each of us have been remarking on the conference about the way it was successfully an early Election Evening victory get together. I imply, they weren’t even—Republicans in Milwaukee weren’t even speaking in regards to the marketing campaign as if it have been going to be aggressive. It was already over. The fats woman was singing onstage in prime time in Milwaukee. And but, I bear in mind corresponding with a number of good Republicans—Trump supporters—whereas I used to be there, they usually have been a bit of bit nervous in regards to the Vance choice. After which on Thursday night time, to Mark’s level, Trump provides this type of bizarre, meandering speech that appears to squander a number of the goodwill that he had coming into that occasion due to the assassination try. And it felt like between these two issues—the Vance choice after which the speech—after which, you recognize, 24 hours after leaving Milwaukee, Biden will get out, Harris takes over the ticket, and all of a sudden, these dominoes began to fall.
And what we noticed was the entire best-laid plans of the Trump operation go awry. And it wasn’t simply surface-level issues the place we are saying, Oh, that was type of foolish he mentioned that. Or Oh, this was an unforced error, however it’ll be a fast information cycle and blow over. A few of what we’ve seen, I believe, can have an actual affect on the poll field.
Rosin: So what you’re describing is a marketing campaign technique that’s pretty conventional that they have been following pretty efficiently, which is: try to win over, you recognize, some middle-of-the-road voters, or at the least not massively alienate these individuals.
However, Trump has been operating a really completely different form of marketing campaign—like going to Madison Sq. Backyard—and fewer on-the-ground sources. And that looks as if a sample throughout swing states, which for me raises the query whether or not what these managers are calling chaos, like, that’s the technique.
The technique was at all times simply: get a number of consideration.
Alberta: I believe it is determined by the kind of consideration you’re speaking about. So when Trump goes to the southern border and has, you recognize, a whole bunch of cameras following him round there and talks in regards to the lives misplaced by the hands of unlawful immigrants committing crimes—you recognize, that’s consideration, and it will probably even be consideration that’s rooted in some hyperbole, some demagoguing, some bombast. And but it’s productive consideration politically for the Trump individuals, proper? They take a look at this type of cost-benefit evaluation they usually acknowledge that, positive, we’d antagonize some individuals with this rhetoric. We would alienate some individuals with our give attention to these points, however we expect that the reward is much better than the danger.
So there may be, I believe, loads of good consideration that the Trump individuals do need. I believe what they’ve tried to keep away from is a number of the sideshow that’s interesting to among the very on-line, right-wing, MAGA troll base however does nothing so as to add to the coalition that I used to be describing a minute in the past. And in the end on the finish of the day, politics is a math equation. It’s multiplication and addition.
Leibovich: Proper, and I believe, to Tim’s level, immigration was an extremely efficient challenge for Trump. If you tip that into individuals consuming pets in Springfield, Ohio, and simply how that took over the narrative of the Trump marketing campaign—I imply, one, they appear like fools; two, it insults the intelligence of so many individuals, and it turns a really severe and efficient challenge for the Trump marketing campaign, immigration, right into a joke and into simply one thing actually, actually problematic and gross.
Rosin: So the artwork of operating a Trump marketing campaign, then, is to siphon and handle and titrate the chaos precisely proper. Like, you need the correct of chaos, the correct of consideration, however in case you lose management of it, it simply comes again to chunk you. Is that principally what’s occurred?
Alberta: Yeah, and it’s at all times gonna be a high-wire act, proper? These individuals aren’t silly. They knew what they have been getting themselves into. In reality, Chris LaCivita—who is likely one of the two individuals managing the Trump presidential marketing campaign right here in 2024—inside just a few weeks of his choice to affix the operation again within the fall of 2022, you might have Trump saying that he desires to terminate components of the Structure. You have got Trump saying and doing these type of loopy, self-destructive issues. And LaCivita is type of trying round saying, What have I gotten myself into?
And naturally people who find themselves mates with him are saying, Come on, dude, you knew precisely what you have been signing up for. You understand precisely what you have been getting your self into. So I believe no matter diploma of self-delusion could exist on the outset, when a few of these of us ally themselves with Donald Trump, you recognize, it dissolves fairly rapidly they usually turn into clear-eyed about who they’re working for and what the challenges are.
And to your level, Hanna, sure, there’s inevitably going to be some chaos, some attention-seeking habits, some stuff that’s vulgar and inappropriate and racist and misogynistic and no matter else. Their job is to attempt to flip issues which can be form of probably poisonous into productiveness. They’re attempting to mine coals out of manure right here, and once more, I can’t stress this sufficient: For many of the marketing campaign, they have been truly doing a reasonably good job of it. However at a sure level I believe it simply turns into an excessive amount of to handle.
Rosin: Mark, do you get the sense that the Harris marketing campaign’s—you described it as, like, a bit of dose of confidence. Is that due to all the things that Tim has described?
Leibovich: Yeah. I imply, I believe Trump has given them a lot to work with. And never identical to, Oh, look, he mentioned this and type of placing that on the market. I imply, early indications in regards to the revulsion that ladies are having—girls voters are having for Trump—much more so than regular. And the diploma to which they appear to be voting and perhaps even mendacity to their husbands about—to form of use a brand new advert that the Harris marketing campaign is utilizing which is principally saying, you recognize, a number of Republican girls are secretly going into the poll, and behind their husband’s again, they’re voting for Kamala Harris. So once more, Trump made their job simpler, however I believe they’ve taken what has been given to them. And I do really feel hopeful. Yeah. Once more, from speaking to a bunch of them, and ranges of very, very cautious optimism—which I might say, you recognize, it might most likely be an absolute verboten factor for anybody anyplace close to the Harris marketing campaign to point out something greater than only a tiny little bit of confidence. As a result of that’s going to harken again to the overconfidence of 2016 or the overconfidence of 2020, you recognize—Biden was imagined to win by much more than he did.
And I believe what freaks everybody out is the concept Trump, within the two instances he’s been on a general-election poll, has massively overperformed his polls. And now there’s a way that maybe that’s been accounted for in these polls they usually’re undercounting African American voters, girls voters, and so forth.
So anyway, I believe all of that’s form of baked into this, however look, I don’t need to recommend that something aside from huge nervousness is the default for everybody round this marketing campaign. And I assume each campaigns.
Rosin: Yeah. Okay. Let’s depart the listeners with ideas about Election Evening. There’s the zen choice, and hopefully lots of our listeners will make the most of the zen choice.
Take an extended, 12-hour stroll. Be residence by 11 p.m. after which activate the tv. In need of that, the map is de facto extensive and open. I imply, seven open states. It’s rather a lot. So for individuals who are usually not spiritually constructed for the zen choice, how—actually—will you guys be watching? Like, give a listener a information of what to be careful for on the night time.
Leibovich: Nicely, sure, there are seven battleground states. However I believe there’s rather a lot you’ll be able to study if you will get data from different states. You understand, there’s a ballot that everybody has been speaking about—a number of insiders have been speaking about over the previous few days—from Iowa. Iowa, nobody thought-about a swing state. Safely crimson, actually has been in the previous few elections, actually for Trump. Ann Selzer, a deeply revered pollster, got here up with this Des Moines Register ballot on Saturday night time, having Harris forward by three.
Now, placing apart whether or not Iowa’s now a battleground state—I imply, if it’s even within the ballpark of correct, I imply, as a euphoric outcome for individuals on Workforce Harris. I imply, look, if there are some early numbers from, say, South Carolina, Florida, that, you recognize, perhaps present Trump’s margins a bit of decrease than you’ll anticipate, presumably that’s one thing which you could study from.
So once more, it’s not simply the seven battlegrounds, which is able to most likely take some time to depend, particularly in among the states with legal guidelines that make it tougher to depend early votes. However, yeah, I imply, like, the entire nation does vote. It’s like, margins do matter, and I believe we will study from lots of people.
And look, even, like, Massachusetts, Vermont, Kentucky—I imply there are these early states that you recognize precisely who’s going to win, however you’ll be able to study from.
Rosin: As a result of if the margins are smaller than they’re anticipated to be, then that’s a bit of information that’s attention-grabbing. Tim, what about you?
Alberta: So there’s a identified identified, and a identified unknown. The identified identified is that Democrats are persevering with to see erosion of their coalition, particular to African American males, Latino males, and to some extent younger voters.
And I believe particularly if we’re Detroit, at Milwaukee, at Philly, at Atlanta, at Maricopa County—there are locations the place we needs to be being attentive to this, proper? I believe the identified unknown right here is: Does Donald Trump get crushed up amongst suburban girls, or does he get demolished amongst suburban girls?
And I believe that the reply to that query might be determinative to who’s sworn into workplace on January 20.
So I’m actually paying very shut consideration to the collar counties outdoors of Philadelphia, to the WOW counties outdoors of Milwaukee. It’s important to take a look at Vegas and Charlotte and Raleigh-Durham. A few of these locations—I don’t need to be reductive, however I actually do really feel like, in the end, that’s the place the election goes to be received or misplaced.
Rosin: Each of you might be saying: Search for indicators. It’s not simply large, broad swing states, however there are significant indicators in smaller election outcomes that you just’ll be in search of.
Alberta: That’s proper. It’s, once more, it’s only a numbers recreation. And it so occurs that essentially the most dense, vote-rich areas of persuadable voters are simply constantly present in these as soon as re,d then purple, now fairly blue suburbs. And so whether or not you’re watching the presidential race and even in case you’re in search of a possible upset in a Senate race, like in Texas, the place Ted Cruz on paper appears to be like like he’s going to win and perhaps even win comfortably. However take note of Harris County, Texas, which, on Election Evening in 2012, Obama and Romney fought Harris County to principally a draw. I believe it was a matter of some hundred votes that separated them. Quick-forward, you recognize, a decade. Democrats are carrying Harris County, which is the Houston suburbs—they’re carrying it by a quarter-million votes, 300,000 votes reliably, and that quantity’s solely going up.
So these are the components of the nation the place I believe in case you’re paying shut consideration, you’ll begin to get a reasonably good concept.
Rosin: Okay. I believe we’ve got choices for the meditators and choices for individuals who can’t deliver themselves to meditate. Thanks each for becoming a member of me on today earlier than the election.
Leibovich: Thanks, Hanna. Thanks, Tim.
Alberta: Mark, I’ll name you tomorrow. We are able to meditate collectively.
Leibovich: I stay up for it. Yep, we’ll be part of figurative palms.
Rosin: This episode was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. It was engineered by Rob Smierciak. Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
I’m Hanna Rosin, and we’ll be again later this week to cowl the election, although presumably sooner than our regular Thursday launch, relying on the outcomes.
Thanks for listening.